Ian: The Leaky Bucket Podcast is about sort of the challenges that running a business brings. We're all human we've all got that side of stuff we talked about juggling motherhood, want to explain what challenges maybe that's brought for you in alongside running a business?
Jess: So we ended up having our first baby about three months after starting the business and just after Ben had given up --my partner-- had given up his full-time job. So, we were properly thrown in the deep end on all sides. So, it was learning how to be a mom, which I'd never done before alongside how to be a business owner, which I'd never done before.
It was two totally new experiences, both of which take a huge amount of your time and, and energy and mental space. It was learning how to swap my hats; I suppose it is the best way to put it. I could be useful to the clients and, and to the people that work for us as well as giving the best to, to my baby. It was a challenging time, but one that led to a lot of personal growth and wouldn't have it any other way now.
I think both of those things are things that people have got plenty of opinions on but actually there's no right or wrong way to either be a mom or to be a business owner dad or a parent of any description I suppose but definitely no manual for either of those processes so two massive challenges to take on at the same time.
Ian: As you moved into running a business, how did that transition from employment across to then running a business? How did that how did you cope with that, how did that work?
Jess: When I first left my employed job I was pregnant at the time. All of a sudden had a lot of free time and a lot of hormones. I spent a lot of time, very emotional that was actually quite a difficult period of time for me. However, having settled into it, the first thing was because we initially started off just very small, me, myself and my husband.
You know, our outgoings were, were very low and our, our freedom felt very high. So, it felt like a great space for the first six months or so. Ben had time to be with myself and our baby and would work in the evenings. We made time work for us. Then as the business grew, that as the freedom became less and the cost became higher and that became more difficult to manage.
So, it's been a rollercoaster, but one full of joy and learning which I love, you never stop learning, especially when you are running a business. It was difficult and amazing all in all in the same, in the same breath, which I think sums up running your own business quite well.
Ian: How have you coped with the challenges? At times where you've got challenges, I suppose within the business that means that that needs your attention but then you've also got children who also need your attention at the same time. How have you managed that that pulling in both directions?
Jess: For me I love what I do. I love the business that I run but it's not the be all and end all. The most important thing for us is family. We've always prioritized family first. And we'll continue to do so because at the point that the business is not allowing us to do that it's not serving its purpose to us, which is to allow us to live the family life that we want to live.
That's not to say that there haven't been difficult moments or crunch points, and you just have to realize that during those times it won't be like that forever. And yes, you might have to do the odd late night, or you perhaps might have to ask someone to help have the baby or, or help out for a couple of hours a day.
But at the point that it is always like that something's not right. So we/I would always prioritize being a mother/parent over running a business because that's my most important job.
Without going into massive details, we had a similar situation ourselves recently and we had to do that and it was the right thing to do.
Ian: How's it been trying to structure the team around and to make sure that you've got a team that can work hard for you guys as business owners but also understand that you guys are parents as well?
Jess: We are incredibly lucky with the team that we've got. We are a relatively small team and we all function as a dysfunctional family as it were anyway. So, they are incredibly understanding and Pheobe our little girl, often visits the office and they're all quite happy to take 20 minutes out, to draw some pictures with her or play some games with her.
And I think Ben and I act very much as a team. So, if one of us is unavailable for any reason, the other one will step in. And of course, staff welfare and wellbeing are incredibly important to us. As well as being a mom, looking after them is kind of the next priority.
So, if an email has to wait or sending an invoice has to wait, or a meeting has to be delayed, then, so be it. It's not life or death. Whereas the personal relationships that you have in your life of the important people are of the utmost importance to us. So, luckily, we've ever had a crunch point where the two have already come head-to-head and caused an issue because people are very understanding.
And also, I think they appreciate that. That's how they would like to live their lives as well. And we try to give the same back to them. Again, their family issues are more important than the work that they do for us. And we would always, always let them know that. So it's, it's always going to be difficult when you've got clashing priorities, but you always just have to try and remember what is the most important one and put that first.
I think a lot of people forget, we’ve got all the various different things that people are in but actually everybody's just in the people business and if you are open and you are honest with your team or with clients or whoever they might be; actually, most situations people can relate to and they can understand. And then if there are mistakes or there's delays, being open and honest people relate to that and can see what's going on. It's a challenge when you start to hide it and maybe then you start to go "Oh, I won't quite reveal that and then little white lies maybe creep in and then before you know it, things are out of control. Then people get angry but actually just being open and honest often just makes it very relatable and people can understand where you're coming from.
Ian: Obviously, running your business probably hasn't been without challenges highly unlikely. What are some of the big challenges for you that stick out over the course of running Design in the Shires?
Jess: Probably the biggest challenge because we started off, as I said, just myself and my husband running it from home; biggest challenge was getting to the point that we were unable to cope between the two of us with the workload and it became clear that we were going to have to take somebody else on.
And that was terrifying at the time. For several reasons, firstly obviously the financial impact of doing so, but also the loss of control. So, all of a sudden it wasn't just myself and Ben making decisions or taking action. We had to trust that the people that we were employing could do it just as well as us.
And as I said, we are very lucky with our team. They're absolutely brilliant, but no matter how good the people are underneath you, those first few steps of going actually, “okay, you can handle this” was difficult and scary. And so, I think that was probably the biggest challenge, but the benefits of the back of that were so huge.
You know, both of our stress levels have massively dropped. As soon as we were able to share that burden of workload the business became more efficient and more profitable. Your output can get better. And I think that every challenge is a huge opportunity. And it's just a case of making sure that you take considered risks to make sure that you are both solving a problem, but also solving problems you didn't realize you had and creating opportunity.
So, I think taking those first few employees on was very scary. But we wouldn't be where we were today. If we hadn't done it. We had great support in making those decisions as well from yours truly.
Ian: I think if I remember rightly not only did you guys probably take on staff earlier than what a lot of other businesses do, but I think you also took on premises around that same point as well to go “Actually, almost this business has to accelerate pretty quickly to that next level.”.
If we're going to get what we want from it, --which there's a financial incentive from running a business-- but actually this was a lifestyle business, How did you valid validate that risk where you were going “Ooh, this feels painful financially but actually long term this is what we want.”?
Jess: I think it was mainly so myself, I do more of the business management. Ben does more of the kind of hands on the frontline work, like the design. And I could see he was getting unwell. His, stressed, he wasn't there. Most of the time, he was away in his head. Thinking about things, you know, getting to the point where you begin to forget things, because there's just so much on a to-do list.
So that was never why we started the business. We started the business because we wanted to be free, I'm stress free and be able to control the impact that work had on our life rather than, you know, being nine to five for somebody else. And at the point where it wasn't giving us that it was actually more stressful than what the roles we were in previously.
It had to be an easy decision because health is health and well-being mental health is incredibly important to us and watching my husband struggle was not an option anymore. So yes, there was going to be a financial hit. But getting my husband back you know, Phoebe getting her dad back, him being able to take time out to spend with the family is worth so much more than any pounds or pennies could ever be. And we didn't start the business to get rich. We started the business to get a lifestyle, to be able to control our own time and employing people allowed us to get back to that point. So, it felt scary at the time, but it was also a very easy decision.
So, it's those oxymorons, if you like that terrifying, but very necessary and very easy to do.
Ian: I think it's one of the key learnings that we like to try and share within the podcast. The whole leaky bucket effect. Actually as business owners, we get so driven towards growing a business to new levels to want to think that a lot of the time, we can just sell our way out of a problem but actually sometimes it takes standing back and just going “Actually by selling more and taking on more clients or taking on more work what problems are we creating that we could see if only we took the time to stop and focus on them?”
I fully guessed that you've been guilty of it. We all have. I'm certainly not immune. At times when you took on more work than what you wanted to, what problems did you start to see creep out of the business then when you took that time to stand back?
Jess: We definitely saw problems in terms of time management. In that we both ended up working ridiculously long hours you know, right through evenings, weekends, which is not the lifestyle that we wanted to have for us and also for our little girl. But also, the quality drops. So, the output of work that you are generating suddenly, isn't what you set out to do.
And we always wanted to do the best that we could. We never set out to make a mediocre product for anybody and we care deeply also about our clients and delivering for them. And as soon as you are not quite hitting that mark you know, it's damaging to every aspect of your business, as well as your own confidence and your own belief in what you can do.
So, it was necessary to move away from that, to maintain the quality of the business, as well as the lifestyle we wanted to have. Lots of problems I think are the answer to that question.
Ian: You're not alone I think we've all got them. We've all had them and we'll probably have them as well.
Do you take any steps now, maybe even holding each other accountable, or what do you do now to make sure that you slightly feel things maybe you're going off track and you're going back towards those same issues? How do you catch yourself and check that you're not going too far down one of those sorts of paths again?
Jess: So I think it would be unrealistic to say that there's never moments where we are overworking. You know, there are times where there's a crunch point. Where outside factors influence the ability to achieve deadlines and all of a sudden you are rushing. But what we did was we employed a wonderful studio manager, and she is really, really big on health and wellbeing.
And she keeps a tight grip on all of us that work here. So, as well as managing time more efficiently, she is an external source to Ben and I to go hang on a minute, you know. “It looks like you're stressed.” She will help take the burden off, but also between Ben and myself, we are more able now having been through that difficult time to recognize when it's coming up.
So, we try and preempt it a little bit. “So, I'm feeling stressed”. “Let's list out what you've got to do.” “What have we got to do?” “Are there bits that we can outsource?” “Are there bits that somebody else on the team can be doing?” “Can I help?” So, it's more of a collaborative team effort. To manage that overload when it does come, because it is always going to come at some point.
It's the nature of it. There's so much that's outside of your control. So, I think early recognition of the signs of being stressed, we've both got better at that. And then sharing those burdens between team members, whether they be in house or outsourced has been our biggest thing, but also taking time out.
Actually, if you feel stressed, you better just to step away, step away for half a day, go for a walk up the Hills or whatever. It might clear your head and come back with a renewed sense of priority. Because it's that phrase, isn't it. You can't see the word for the trees when we're all, all caught up in in trying to do what we need to do.
And little tips and hints that we've learned over the years of eating your frogs, which I think came from you, Ian, making sure that you do those big, nasty, horrible tasks that you've been putting off, just actually just get them done. And then they don't cause you that pain down the line.
And also, having a high priority list set at the beginning of the week. To make sure that you really stay focused on those tasks that are valuable to the business rather than getting sucked into just clearing off the little tasks that don't really add anything. And that has really changed my, both of our philosophies and approach to work, which means that we get those situations far less frequently than we did before.
Ian: I think one thing I certainly always take from you guys is there's always an openness to learning. You're very aware that when you're trying something new ---regardless of this, doesn't probably apply to business, outside of business as well--- but when you're trying something new as long as your intentions are good and they're in the right place, --you will probably make mistakes-- but it's rather than just sort of brushing off those mistakes.
How do you learn from them and make sure that you're continuing to lower the risk of you making the same mistake twice and I feel like you guys are always very keen to want to learn from others so, if you if you can take sort of somebody else's mistakes and see what they've done and how they've gone wrong and then learn from those, it massively accelerates your business because you don't end up making a mistake that knock your business back you learn from somebody else and you accelerate that forward.
That being said I think as owners what we're all completely guilty of sometimes being completely naive to our weaknesses and our failings and that we almost are overconfident and possibly egotistical sometimes and think that things are going to go amazing and we know everything. And I think then usually somewhere around the time that you start to hire people and good people is usually a bit of a breakthrough moment where you start to realize that “Actually no, I'm not the best I don't know everything. There are people out there who are better me better than me at X Y and Z.”
Have you guys gone through that sort of moment? Was there a particular breakthrough moment where you suddenly realized and went “Actually, we need great people around.”?
Jess: I think we definitely. I would agree with everything you've just said. When we first started, we were overconfident. We knew there was stuff that we didn't know. But we also felt, I think cuz we started off as freelancers and there was lots of money around and we thought, oh this is wonderful.
You know, got no costs. We know everything. Business is easy. And then you suddenly get that. I suppose it's the moment for us, as you mentioned earlier, when you've got premises and you've got staff and all of a sudden there's other people that you are responsible for. The crunch point of, “okay, we've still got a lot to learn.”
And then I think we probably had a bit of a crisis of confidence where we thought, “oh, we're in too deep. We don't know what we're doing.” There are things out of control and we can't keep up. And it's that period of chaos where you, you've not quite got all your ducks in a row and you realize you don't know as much as you thought you knew. And you've somehow got to pull yourself through that.
And actually, learning is the absolute key to that. Being open to other people's experiences and accessing the help that's around you, whether that's, through business coaching or through stuff that councils and the chambers and things like that can offer, there's so much support and help to make you realize that you are not alone in that feeling. And then it becomes a challenge and it becomes fun again, cuz you think, “oh, we can do it.” We can sort it out and utilizing technology and all that wonderful stuff that you can do to make your business run more efficiently.
But yeah, I think definitely the premises and the staff was the moment where all of a sudden you've got costs that you didn't have before. And “Oh, this is harder than I thought and I definitely don't know everything.” But I think it's necessary to almost have that wobble to really focus you on what you can do to make the business run more efficiently because as efficient as you can get your business, the less stressful it's going to be.
So, it is for everybody. It's positive thing, but yes, I definitely went through that moment. A hundred percent.
Ian: I feel like as business owners we almost go in the early stages. It's like “Oh shall I get started?” And there's almost like “I'm not quite sure if I can do this” and suddenly you make the leap. There's almost over confidence then for a period of time and you're like “Yeah, I'm unbeatable!”
Keep gaining new clients, keep winning keep growing. Then all of a sudden when you suddenly then need help, now almost you end up with going “Oh, now I feel like I've got imposter syndrome. I'm not good enough. I'm looking at all these problems we've got. Now we don't have systems for this or my financials aren't up to date or how do we hire great people. I've made some mistakes and I've hired people who didn't really get what we're about.”
And suddenly then almost you end up going completely the reverse and you end up going “I don't think I'm good enough to do this”. And it's almost a mad rollercoaster and then suddenly you can end up stuck with it because we move from challenge to challenge and want to fix problem after problem. Then actually sometimes it takes an effort to stand back and just go actually “Wow! What is the amazing stuff that we've actually achieved!”
That's a great sort of segue into --actually we've been very negative-- we've looked at our challenges and lots of things like that.
What's some of the positives that actually that have come out from you guys being business owners being parents and everything that you've been doing to help people?
Jess: I think firstly, the level of freedom over time. So, then we were very busy, actually, we can decide when we want to do things, which you don't always get with being an employee of somebody. But learning, the meeting new people, we are lucky enough to work with a huge array of different kinds of companies and different sorts of people.
And that was amazing. And learning about all these different industries that we never would've come into contact with had we not done it. So, it's broadened our horizons in that sense. Made us more or more aware of what's around us. And I've loved building a team, you know, building an environment that I would've wanted to work in and making sure that our employees are happy and we're doing everything that we can for them has been a really interesting experience and a really valuable experience and just down to, like picking the furniture for the office and the decoration and those fun things that you don't often get to talk about. That's been a really a lovely time and helping people get the best out of their skills as well is really rewarding.
Which is not something that you often get to do. Apart from running your own business. And if the sense of achievement, I feel very proud of us that we've managed to get to where we are. It's not always easy. And sometimes there's, you know, bumps in the road, but to have got to where we are and still be here kind of four years later is something I'm incredibly proud of.
And I think it is a great achievement. And I don't think people are often quick enough to say, “Actually, no, I have done well, we have done well.” And we are glad we're here. I mean, especially being a mom, coming back to Phoebe, if she's poorly, I take the day off. I don't have to worry about ringing somebody up and saying, I'm not coming in.
We are able to go out for lunch as a family, occasionally, which she wouldn't always do. You know that level of freedom is probably the best thing. And I'm not saying, my time is totally free. Obviously, there's some stuff that you have to do, but you can kind of pick where you put things.
And is really valuable for why we set out the business.
Ian: I love that I think it's that again we just end up coming back to people. So many business owners can be out there and just going “Oh my God, people are all my problems.” But actually, when you get it right and you realize --for me it was when we installed values and we installed a culture within our business and we lived and breathed that-- once we then started bringing in people who aligned with us suddenly it goes from being a stressful and difficult place to work to being amazing place to work. Because people get it and people understand like you say, when you have those moments where you go do you know what like my family has to come, they get it but similarly you also get it for them as well because they have those moments and it just means everyone's more appreciative and things roll out and move so yeah, it's easy to go.
People create all my problems but people also create solutions. All of the people are a business. You couldn't do the things you do without them on board.
So I wanted to talk to you a bit about DESIGN IN THE SHIRES. What does DESIGN IN THE SHIRES do?
How do you help people? What's the typical problems people come to you with and how do you help them see some clarity from something that actually can be very complex and people think they can do it themselves? Could you get the likes of like website design you get the likes WIX or something and people go on and think “Yeah, this is easy” and then all of a sudden they run into a big problem. How do you help people?
Jess: We work with primarily SMEs but we do have some corporate clients as well. And I think the most valuable, the ones that I love the most are the kind of startups or the sole traders who, like you say, might have tried to do something themselves before. The industry, I think, has generally quite a bad name.
People don't understand the cost behind it. People aren't always open and transparent about those costs. And I think people, a lot of the time, feel that they might be being ripped off or that they're paying far too much for a service. So, what I particularly enjoy is making sure that we are backing that trend.
We want to make sure that people know that they can trust us, that the pricing is transparent and they know what they're getting. And if we get somebody who's tried to do it themselves, you know, Wix's example is perfect. They've set up a Wix website or similar, it might look pretty. It'll probably be a template.
Probably other people might have that site as well. It's not doing what people need it to do and we can give them a real solution to that problem which is a very cost-effective solution. And it's always going to be an investment in a new website or a new marketing campaign. But what we really want to offer people is a return on that investment.
So, finding out why people want the site, what it needs to do, what the objectives of the business are. Making sure that the values of the business and the personality of that business is displayed at the forefront. You know, it's a shot window, that kind of thing. And then seeing people get the results and having them, and we are very, very lucky and, and very proud of the fact that virtually all of the clients that we've worked with have continued to work with us into the future.
So, we carry on doing marketing with them, which I think shows the quality of what we are providing. And it's just incredibly, incredibly rewarding when you can sit down with them and get to know their business, give them something that answers the problems that they have and delivers for them what they need.
And as I said, it's really interesting cuz you get to learn about all sorts of different people, which is brilliant. I mean, primarily we do web, but we also do marketing social media and it's just very interesting. The different types of people and the different goals and objectives that people have and making sure that you come up with a plan that really returns their investment for them and shows them the opportunity available to them. If they utilize the digital services available properly.
Ian: Yeah. Maybe many owners possibly business owners seem to be very happy to plan money into marketing which is risky I suppose in terms of you don't know that you're going to gain people and then they divert that traffic into a website that's half built in or something that was cheap and cheerful. It looks like it and it says that and you spend all this money on marketing and then they drop onto something that you sort of go “oh that's what represents your brand and your company and your image.” And I wonder whether there's an element of business owners who go I view a website cost as like that's another marketing cost as such but I like your term. In terms of it's an investment.
Like you don't you don't build a website every month like you know, build it and it's an asset that's to be there for a period of time. Yes, it would probably need updating and improving and you know over that sort of timeframe but actually it is an investment it's frustrating sometimes when you do see somebody with some great marketing and then you drop onto the website and you're like “Ooh this feels a bit last decade sort of thing” and you find it frustrating.
It's a challenge but hopefully it's one that you can keep making noise in. And actually, that was the other point you'd said that I liked, I think you're right to be raise the elephant in the room I suppose which is that it's a “distrusted” but actually for the very fact that you were able to able to just go yes, it is a distrusted industry. And actually, our almost number one point is how do we raise trust. Think there's too many people who don't recognize what the biggest problem is in their industry. So, I think by just acknowledging that that's a problem and then doing something about it, well that builds trust straight away. It's so simple and yet so effective.
As we go towards wrapping up, was going to be what is the biggest lesson that you've learned from business, from life, anything I suppose so far that you feel other people could learn from? So that maybe that they can do that process that you guys do and learn from other people's mistakes and make sure that actually if you're taking in what other people have got wrong and you cannot make that mistake actually that would accelerate your business just so much further forward?
Jess: I think it does center around learning and the most, the wisest people, those that know that they don't really know anything. And I think being open to listening to other people not to respond, but to genuinely listen and take that on board without getting offensive. And try to defend your choices previously, because we've all made mistakes.
We've all, with the benefit of hindsight, thought that we could have done things differently. But I think it's human nature when someone says, “oh, why don't you do this to be like...”, “well, no, we did it like this because whatever it might be.” but actually to be open minded to other people's viewpoints, to try and look at things objectively without being too harsh on yourself and to realize that we never stop learning. And as soon as we've reached the point that we think we know everything, then you've just become arrogant effectively.
And you're not going to move forward. So, realizing that there is still a lot to learn and to be open-minded to the views and opinions of others, even if you don't end up taking them on, even if it ends up solidifying what you already think. If you've been able to listen actively to that person and take that in, then that adds real value to you and life experience. So, yeah, just never, never feel like you've got there because there's so much more for all of us to learn.
Ian: Yeah, I think it's Albert Einstein who says "Any idiot with a plan can outperform any genius without one." And I think that just being open and prepared to listen to other people. Actually, it just gives you options. It gives you choice if you think that your view is the only view and that's the right view and you're not prepared to listen to anybody else, you're going to go wrong and you're going to crash at some point.
Like I say it it's not about necessarily believing somebody else's right or they're better than you or whatever. It's just going "Actually, is what I believe to be true actually true?" And you have to absorb other opinions in order to make that. An amazing tip would lead to a lot of better decisions that you can make and other people can make as well.
Jess: So, another big thing for me is sharing knowledge. I'm allowing people to make an informed decision. So, if you are unsure about your next steps or just want to pick up some tips then head over to our socials. There's plenty on there. And we'll keep going with that, cuz I think it's really valuable to people.
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